The Rafael del Pino Foundationthe Ministry of Foreign Affairs, European Union and Cooperation of the Government of Spain, the CIDOB and the European Commission organised a face-to-face dialogue entitled: "Why Putin's Russia? Unfinished business in post-Soviet times" in which participants took part:
Elena Zhemkova,Memorial, Nobel Peace Prize 2022Co-founder and Executive Director
Grigory Shvedov, Memorial, Nobel Peace Prize 2022, Patron and Director of the information agency MEMO.RU
Mykola Riabchuk, National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine
and who moderated
Natalie Nougayrède, former editor-in-chief of Le Monde and member of the editorial board of The Guardian
Elena Zhemkova became one of the founders of Memorial in 1987. In 1988, she became a member of Memorial's Board and has been its Executive Director since 1995. Among other projects, she has been responsible for the initiative "Victims of Two Dictatorships", dedicated to the analysis of the fate of the 3 to 5 million people condemned by the Nazis to forced labour and who upon their return to the Soviet Union were persecuted again by their own government. In recent years, he has coordinated the International Memorial network, which includes more than 30 regional organisations in Australia, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Italy, Lithuania, Poland, Russia and Ukraine. In 2022, she received an Honorary Doctor of Science degree from the Institut d'Etudes Politiques de Paris "Sciences Po". The main areas of her research and activism are the history of political repression, the comparative analysis of Nazi and Soviet repressive mechanisms, the development of civil society organisations and their means of support, educational work with young people, and the promotion of democratic values and human rights.
Grigory Shvedov is a Russian journalist and activist, known for his efforts to promote human rights in Russia, particularly in the Caucasus region. He is currently the editor-in-chief of Caucasus Knot (Кавказский узел), an online news outlet established to provide unbiased reporting on political oppression, human rights violations and violent conflict throughout the region. In 2012, he was awarded the Geuzenpenning Prize. Shvedov has been a contributor to Memorial since 1999. He is currently a Patron of Memorial and Director of the information agency MEMO.RU.
Mykola Riabchuk is a research fellow at the Institute of Political Studies in Kiev and a lecturer at the University of Warsaw. He has written dozens of books translated into several languages and many articles and book chapters, mainly on post-communist transformation, nation-state building, national identity and Ukrainian-Russian relations. His recent publications include Eastern Europe since 1989: Between the Loosened Authoritarianism and Unconsolidated Democracy (Warsaw, 2020), and At the Fence of Metternich's Garden: Essays on Europe, Ukraine, and Europeization (Stuttgart, 2021). Between 2014 and 2018, he directed the Ukrainian Centre of PEN International, where he holds the honorary presidency. His work was recognised with the Taras Shevchenko National Prize for Arts and Literature (2022) and the "Bene merito" medal of the Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs (2009) for a significant contribution to Polish-Ukrainian reconciliation.
Natalie Nougayrède is a French journalist, former editor-in-chief of Le Monde and a member of the editorial board of The Guardian, which she joined in 2014. After covering the post-1989 transitions in Central and Eastern Europe, she was Le Monde's Moscow correspondent (2001-2005) and later its diplomatic correspondent (2005-2013). She was awarded the Albert London journalism prize for her coverage of the war in Chechnya. She is a board member of the Primo Levi Centre in Paris, an NGO that helps refugees. She is a member of the History Reflection Group of the Körber Foundation and a member of the Council of the ECFR.
Summary:
On 1 February 2023, the Rafael del Pino Foundation, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, European Union and Cooperation of the Government of Spain, CIDOB and the European Commission organised the face-to-face dialogue entitled: "Why Putin's Russia? Unfinished business in post-Soviet times", with the participation of Elena Zhemkova, Memorial, Nobel Peace Prize 2022, Co-Founder and Executive Director; Grigory Shvedov, Memorial, Nobel Peace Prize 2022, Patron and Director of the information agency MEMO.RU, and Mykola Riabchuk, member of the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine. The meeting was moderated by Natalie Nougayrède, former Editor-in-Chief of Le Monde. The event was attended by the heads of the other two 2022 Nobel laureate organisations, Oleksandra Romantsova, Executive Director of the Center for Civil Liberties from Ukraine and Natalia Satsumkevich, Director of the Viasna Human Rights Centre in Belarus.
Mikola Riabchuk: Who is to blame? We must consider our joint responsibility for what has happened. We have all come, little by little, to this situation. We failed to discern and correct certain trends that were taking place in Eastern Europe, such as the fascist dictatorship in Russia and the war against civil society. The war against civil society was not taken into account. We bear our share of responsibility.
Western policies have been based on mistaken assumptions regarding Russia's imperial knowledge, namely a system of ideas that developed from the 18th century tsars, aimed at silencing and subjugating a number of nations. This knowledge became institutionalised and turned into doctrine. The history of Russia that has been passed down year after year is nonsensical, unquestioned ideas. There are differences between Russia and Russia and there are many false historical notions.
Gradually a false perception of Russia and the region has been created. Ukraine was marginalised from the whole European project. It came under Russia's sphere. The West will have to look seriously at this issue and this false knowledge, for example, the Crimea issue, Khrushchev's position at the time, the Tatars. There is a whole series of issues to reconsider.
We Ukrainians have a double responsibility. First of all, Ukraine was independent but it was Russified under the communist sphere and we were not able to quickly carry out reforms to join the EU. We also have a historical responsibility because Ukrainian intellectuals were the ones who established the continuity between Kiev Rus and Russia, the ones who were hired by Peter I. There is a responsibility for the promotion of imperialism. There is a responsibility there for the promotion of imperialism.
What can we do? Civil society is important, it is the only way to change things in any country through evolution. The Russians will not be able to solve the problem, they can only slow down evolution. Sooner or later obstacles to evolution arise. Evolution has to remove them. We can't do anything without civil society.
In Ukraine, the only thing we can do for ourselves, for Europe, is to win this war. We have to bring down the dictatorial Russian regime, discredit it, delegitimise it. I don't think that can bring about a democratisation process in Russia because today it is a fascist dictatorship and there is no elite that can replace the current one and make things better. People of this type will come along who will not be better, but they will be more reasonable, less obsessive and less obsessed with global hegemony. We can contribute to this change, we can resist and defeat this state that is attacking us. They need to be stopped, otherwise they will continue to advance as far as they can if no one stops them. They don't stop, it is never enough for them. They have to be stopped because, if not, they will continue to expand.
Europeans have to understand that this is not Ukraine's war but the war of democratic values and principles and we have to be ready to defend them. It is uncomfortable because energy prices have gone up, but it is a price that has to be paid. Ukraine is paying it in human lives.
Elena Zhemkova: The Nobel committee knows that there is a difference between people and countries. Memorial is an international organisation, it is not just one leader, it is a huge work that we all do together.
When the system collapses and we have the opportunity to read in the archives, to see who has made these tremendous decisions, we will be able to dedicate ourselves to our traditional work. Memorial is a response to the catastrophe, as a desire of many people to fight for the truth, to know the truth, that the catastrophe will not happen again.
The state is out of control and that is why we have so many victims. Once again we are living in a world where the state is out of control, it commits crimes. We have failed. We couldn't find the formula to stop it. Justice has to be equal for all, but victims need compassion and compensation and criminals have to receive their deserved punishment. At Memorial we have worked for decades to remember the victims. We have built up a database of more than three million victims. But we have failed to ensure that offenders are punished.
Now we are again in a country where people are afraid. There are citizens who can overcome this fear, for example, the Czechs after 1968. Now in Russia there are about 20,000 cases of people under investigation for public protests. We have 20,000 reasons that not everything
Ukraine must be helped to win the war, because this is also our destiny. We need to help people, including those who have left Russia. They need to know that they can be counted on. The third thing is people who are afraid, who are under pressure, tell them we will try to help you, you are not alone, try to overcome fear. This is the path we have to take. This is what I recommend to Memorial in all countries.
Grigory Shvedov: In Memorial we cover twenty regions, mainly the Caucasus. From time to time things change, we have to consider the situation in Georgia in 2008. We have to ask ourselves what has happened because we are working in a region where human rights violations have been going on constantly for decades.
Each one of us has to consider one thing, we are missing out on a lot of human rights violations. Just spend some of your time, four minutes a day on the platform of your choice, to interpret what is happening in Ukraine right now. In addition, there are many other places that we have forgotten, for example Nagorno-Karabakh. We need that attention. There are many sources of information to know what is happening, but there are few people who dedicate their time to spread a set of ideas and often there is no adequate reaction.
You need to see the reactions of others, because there are people who have never been to the region, but they have seen what happened there, they have commented on it and they have made a difference. A person in Chechnya was shooting at women whose arms he thought were not properly covered. Someone, brave enough, posted the video. Many people saw it. Ramzan Kadyrov, a bloody dictator, commented that if he knew who these people were who were shooting women, he would give them a prize. The moment he uttered those words, the shooting stopped. There are many of us and we can react to what is happening and make an even bigger difference.
There are people who like Putin, who like him. Now it is very complicated to make an analysis of Putin's popularity. In the consciousness and the minds of Russians, in many Russian cities and in Moscow they will tell you how dissatisfied they are with unemployment, with the price of food, but also that Putin is a serious person. There is no opposition, Russian propaganda is working well and people have the idea that the person who is in charge is not responsible. If there were elections in a month's time, Putin would win. There is no need to choose between order and democracy. We have already seen what is happening with the liberal opposition in various regions of Russia.
Elena Zhemkova: Russia is a very long process. From the very beginning it was a managed democracy, and along the way the independent media were eliminated and it was shown what could be done with independent companies. It is a path where there is serious talk that the parliament is not a place for discussions. It is a path where civil society is being virtually eliminated. It would be ridiculous to remember people talking year after year that this could end badly. If you don't punish crimes, they end up becoming crimes that are also committed outside the country.
Mikail Riabchuk: I agree with the idea that a European Ukraine was a threat to Russia. But Ukraine is an existential threat to Russia, that's what it says and that's why it has to be destroyed, but not only because it can become democratic. It goes deeper. Ukraine delegitimises the whole of Russian history, everything that has been built on Russia's identity. Since the 18th century the relations have been one of war. The Russian empire is constantly trying to eliminate Ukraine, such as assimilation, deportations. These two identities are incompatible. Russia cannot subsist with any kind of Ukraine and even less with a European Ukraine. Negotiations therefore make no sense, this option does not exist.
The Rafael del Pino Foundation is not responsible for the comments, opinions or statements made by the people who participate in its activities and which are expressed as a result of their inalienable right to freedom of expression and under their sole responsibility. The contents included in the summary of this conference, written for the Rafael del Pino Foundation by Professor Emilio González, are the result of the debates held at the meeting held for this purpose at the Foundation and are the responsibility of the authors.
The Rafael del Pino Foundation is not responsible for any comments, opinions or statements made by third parties. In this respect, the FRP is not obliged to monitor the views expressed by such third parties who participate in its activities and which are expressed as a result of their inalienable right to freedom of expression and under their own responsibility. The contents included in the summary of this conference, written for the Rafael del Pino Foundation by Professor Emilio J. González, are the result of the discussions that took place during the conference organised for this purpose at the Foundation and are the sole responsibility of its authors.
